[00:02.8]
Croeso cynnes iawn i chi gyd! Good evening to you all. Welcome to part one of the Diocesan Conference. By now you will have noticed that I'm not Bishop Mary. Bishop Mary's currently with the Crown Nominations Commission doing some important work for the Anglican Communion.

[00:22.5]
So this evening she's asked me to, chair this part one of the conference. She will, however, be with us on Saturday. Before Archdeacon Rhod says some opening prayers, can I remind you that this meeting is being recorded.

[00:41.6]
If you prefer to keep your cameras off, then you, can do that. But the sound, certainly, will all be recorded. Nicola Bennett, our Comms Officer, will be monitoring and gatekeeping the technology.

[01:00.1]
And she and Angela Clark, delighted to say, will be monitoring, questions and hands going up and so on. If you wish to speak, please raise your hand with the Raise your hand function of zoom. And when you finished, remember to lower your hand.

[01:20.9]
Hopefully you can see as many of us as possible. If you, go to the large gallery view, you should be able to get almost 50 people on screen at a time. So I think you might, that might help you to see, a number of the people who are with us.

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Archdeacon Rhod is going to lead usin prayers this evening. Archdeacon. Thank you.

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Let us pray.

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Almighty God, we your people, worship you. Father, Son and Holy Spirit. You are the relationships. You have the Father unbegotten, the Son begotten of the Father, the Spirit proceedings spirated of the Father and the Son.

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Father in Christ. You draw us into that dance of your Trinitarian love. You enfold us in your embrace for your Son, and you include us in your loving gaze as you look upon your beloved. In our time together tonight, may we reflect and refract that divine love between one another as your body, as the body of your son, the Church.

[02:37.6]
May our proceedings tonight be characterised by love for one another. That love that is poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit. Grant us the gift of discernment by that same spirit as we pay attention to what you are saying in this moment for us as a diocese, as you continue to invite your people into the likeness of Christ.

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In his name we pray. Amen.

[03:09.7]
Thank you, Archdeacon Rod. I've welcomed you all, generally. I will offer one specific welcome. That's to our, new Archdeacon of Morgannwg, Archdeacon Anne- Marie. We're delighted to see you, and have you amongst us. Archdeacon Anne-Marie will be leading, the prayers at the end of our meeting tonight.

[03:34.5]
We turn then to the minutes of last year'sconference which is held partly on the 26th and partly on the 28th of September 2024. They reviewed by the Standing Committee. There were no further commentsor corrections to make.

[03:53.0]
Do we accept them as a true and accurate record of that meeting?

[04:01.0]
I can see Canon Lisk, I can see Archdeacon Rhod. I can see others. Yes, accepted, Nicola, I take it. Thank you. No matters arising have been intimated and much of what might be on the minds of others may well be addressed in questions later on if you're happy.

[04:27.5]
We'll move on so to the annual report then from the Diocesan Board of Finance which will be presented by Mr Mike Lawley who's the chair of the DBF and I think he will be showing us some pictures as always.

[04:52.5]
Evening everybody. As Mark said, I'm Mike Lawley, I'm chair of the DBF. And Nicola is going to ably help me to get some slides up. So we can just talk you through some of the activities and the focus of the DBF over the past 12 months but also looking forward.

[05:11.9]
So next slide please, Nicola. So scope of the report we're going to focus on four main areas. First of all talks about the nitty gritty of the finances and where things stand current issues again a lot of them financially related.

[05:29.1]
Say a bit about some aspects of DBF operations which I think are quite positive developments and then a little bit at the end about the Church Growth Fund which some of you may know about. But I can brief you on where we are on there. So Nicola, next slide please.

[05:47.3]
Okay, so talks about finances... and next slide. Okay, you've probably seen a similar slide to this in previous years. So just to reaffirm Our long term aim over the five year cycle is to achieve a balanced budget. Some, some years we don't quite do that.

[06:04.9]
Some years do a bit better. A lot of factors influence it. The investment portfolio performance as well as just The ups and downs of other aspects. In the past you'll recall we made a commitment for a five year period which is sort of stretched into a sixth because of the COVID period to commit if necessary 3 million reserves to enable a vision project to go ahead which was pretty much match funding the money from the RB on the evangelism funding which was a similar programme.

[06:39.3]
I'll talk a bit more about where we're on those in a minute. But overall, again the bottom line for me is that we have to maintain strong financial management. We're a charity. We have responsibilities to all of you. It's not my money, it's your money. And so we do take our responsibilities very seriously.

[06:58.2]
Next slide please.

[07:02.8]
So on the website, you can go and have a look at the annual accounts. They're very, very full. To honest quite long document. But a lot of thanks here to Shantelle, to James and indeed to our auditors and advisors for putting this together.

[07:21.4]
There's a lot of detail in there, a lot of much fuller explanation about what we've been up to as a, as a dbf. So I would commend you have a look at those if you've got time. But in summary, the financial summary is so, income 7.1, expenditure 8.1, which included a budgeted deficit of 536 which is part of that vision funding commitment.

[07:46.3]
So the actual deficit was just over a million, but that includes 509 of depreciation which is essentially bookkeeping to do with the school's portfolio because we own a lot of schools. But equally there's one thing to note we haven't had very often before is a debtor provision.

[08:05.6]
And that again is to do with the arrears, which we'll talk about later on. We made gain on investments in the year. And so the net movement of funds was around about half a million. But overall our reserves are still strong, just a shade under 10 million.

[08:23.6]
And it's interesting to note that despite the commitment to make 3 million available, we've actually held up those reserves pretty well and they probably crept up over the last few years because of other gains we've managed to get, especially on the investment funds.

[08:41.7]
Next slide please.

[08:45.8]
So for 2025, the year we're currently in, what did we budget? So again the continuing commitment to keep a balanced budget. We had a 5% salary and stipend increase to absorb. And so we had a deficit budget set which included that 500 odd thousand which is the last main commitment of the vision strategy.

[09:10.4]
A factor in it was this was the year of transition from the fairer share system to the common fund system. And actually where we've ended up is the common fund pledges were lesser than the fairer share total. We worked with that, looked hard at it, but that's kind of where it landed.

[09:30.5]
But against that, we were rather assuming that if people made pledges then they would be met. So we probably wouldn't have much arrears to offset against that. And again in the budget we've allowed for an increase in the investment funds, 265,000 which is relatively modest compared to long term average because normally we get better performance than that.

[09:54.5]
So next slide please. So where we are on performance to date. So we've passed the half year, so operationally which is the, you know, the day to day business of the dbf, we actually got a surplus. We're running against a budgeted deficit.

[10:11.3]
So that's a positive position. A lot of that will be to do with various vacancies which we'll have had. And another factor, but that's a good position. But that assumes that all the common fund contributions are made as pledged.

[10:26.8]
But the one factor which we have, which we are aware of is that actually we do have some arrears built up already on that. And we had previously arrears in the previous two years. So that's all total enough around about 700 at the moment. But some of that was reflected in last year's provision for debtors.

[10:46.3]
So this is an ongoing theme which I'll talk about and I think maybe reference a bit later on. It's tough out there in ministry areas. We know that numbers are, well, have fallen, certainly fallen since 2019.

[11:03.5]
And we're currently doing a lot of work. I think you'll have various visitations from archdeacons, from Dominic to try and establish what the current picture is today. And then we can make appropriate decisions as to how we go forward. But it's a difficult situation.

[11:21.3]
But equally we do feel we're kind of in overall control of it. But we must understand what's going on. Some positives, I say the investment income is helping. We've also had office cost savings and I'll talk about that as well later on.

[11:36.4]
So the overall performance as of the half year is that we, we're shown a slightly greater deficit than budgeted. But it's not too serious. And often these things with the balance of the year and some people pay their common fund, you know, a few months behind and so on.

[11:52.5]
So I think we're content, we're within sensible limits at the moment. Next slide please. Right, so current issues, again we'll pick on some of these themes. So next slide please. So we're now looking ahead to 2026 and the budget.

[12:11.7]
So we know a lot of the factors we've really got to build into that. So this year we've got a 4% increase in stipends and salaries to build in. Parsonage Board maintenance budget has gone up because those costs are increasing. Where possible we're looking at 0% changes on other.

[12:28.1]
A lot of the smaller items of expenditure. We scrutinise those every year to see whether there's in economies out of those. But they're probably about as tight as they can be. But we like to keep those really tight, in terms of sourcing for our income.

[12:44.0]
So we get monies from the RB, under the two funds they've now got run in and we're dealt with I think very fairly on that compared to the other diocese of our size. But basically we look to cover all our central costs. We call the core costs of the.

[13:00.5]
Of the DBF, including support to the ministry areas, our staff basically from those sources and in a common fund. The principle was that should reflect the actual total costs of ministry so it be stipends, housing and other costs which are born.

[13:21.3]
So, that's... That would be... The ministry areas would be providing that collectively. But I say then the Diocesan Costs would be funded out. And I think that's an important principle that we're not expecting the ministry areas to bear central costs.

[13:39.9]
A lot of the focus of The staff in recent years has been turned more and more to support the ministry areas. Again, from what I understand that there's quite a mixed picture in ministry areas in terms of. Some are highly organised and.

[13:56.8]
And well on top of other people because of, you know, just... what they are as a Ministry Area. It's a bit more of a struggle for some people. So that's where we're focusing more support to Try and get everybody to a similar sort of level. So, the 2026 budget, it's pretty much complete now.

[14:16.5]
Climb now except for a couple of the big sort of ticket items on it. And the aim though is to get that into a final draught state to be presented the DBF in November, obviously for approval so that we can enact it then in 2026.

[14:34.4]
Next slide please. So, some issues to be considered. So we've got the Evangelism Fund and the Vision Programmes. These will be in their last six months. I mentioned earlier when Covid struck, we had a moratorium in, on, on recruitment because we couldn't recruit.

[14:54.7]
And so effectively those programmes got pushed out by six months each to to try and achieve the same aims then. So we've got six months of it and then that, that, that will taper off and that'll be it then. I say in the draught budget we've still got this issue with common fund pledges.

[15:13.3]
Currently there's a shortfall but again there's more discussions going on with everybody to try and really get to the bottom of where we are. So we've got a, you know, a proper fair picture of the whole diocese. And again this is income issue which we're just trying to understand more.

[15:31.0]
I think it's say income is the main problem and we've just got to, you know, we are, we have resilience, we have good reserves, but they're not infinite reserves. And so if there's a rocky year as last year was, we can see that out.

[15:48.2]
But we still have to overall be aiming within the say the five year cycle that we've got a stable position. Otherwise we're not being good custodians of your money and it won't be a good place to be in. Next slide please.

[16:05.1]
Okay, so move away from finances a bit to Operations. So next slide. We've had some staffing changes this year. Mair Henry, our Director of Finance and HR, she left us. So we took that opportunity of that vacancy with some other vacancies we're holding to do some restructuring to reset the operation really to be what we want it to be, which is a outward looking and supporting.

[16:35.0]
So we made a number of appointments as listed out there. I think the two I'd like to highlight is, is Dominic Jewel who's come in as Chief Operating Officer. I'm sure a lot of you have already met Dominic and we'll meet him at the conference or whenever. So, and Shantelle Wilkins who's come in as Head of Finance.

[16:51.9]
So those who already I think have made quite a difference in my view as to the style of operation and I think are working well as a team with all the rest of the existing staff and the new one. So I really do feel we're in quite a positive place at the moment with how we're structured and what we can deliver.

[17:13.5]
In terms of the staff members who were involved in the Vision Strategy Evangelism Funds, they were only ever on short term contracts because we couldn't offer them anything else because of the limits on the programme. So they understood that and again we've got a process now.

[17:28.6]
Those programmes are winding down so people are gradually leaving and that's fully understood. But they've had good experience when they're on those programmes. So the total ahead count think sort of by probably the middle of next year when those programmes finally wind up we'll be back down to the long term level for about 20 core people which is say back to sort of where we were in 2020 except we have got more people now.

[17:57.4]
You know supporting given especially on the finance side to the ministry areas. Next slide please.

[18:07.6]
This is just really a slide to summarise the sort of areas we're looking to support ministry areas with advice and just practical support. So it's the finances, the property but also the positive aspects of fundraising and so on. So those areas we feel are really important and the message we get back from people is if we can lend support with that that will help if we have a successful church growth fund bid that'll help us build on those core services.

[18:38.2]
But it'll probably be a different focus from just more support. And again if we have any extra RB funding we'll want to turn that into more support for what's going on on the ground. Next slide please.

[18:55.8]
Quick word about diocesan offices. So you recall that post Covid we moved to a combination of home and dispersed working. A lot of other organisations did very similar. We did identify some offices within various hubs within the deaneries which could be used.

[19:17.0]
They have been used but we thought the take up hasn't been as strong as we thought it might be. But we did go through and give that a go. So what we're now looking at is what the future needs are. We think there will still be the need for some sort of central office but probably not of a great scale because.

[19:37.4]
So we will continue with the home and disperse working. We want people to be out working within the ministry areas and working with administrators rather than all sat in one central office. So Coychurch which was really quite old style as an office it was very cellular so it wasn't a sort of very good staff working environment.

[19:58.7]
That's been at a very low for the last few years. So we're going to finally close that now and are looking now to the future arrangements which we'll probably be focused on in 2026. Because there's other probably more pressing things at the moment. But getting a handle on what our needs are.

[20:16.1]
And then how best we deal with that. But it's, it is really still going to be a combination of some office working but also dispersed arrangements. And I say a lot of operations now, do it that way. Next slide please.

[20:33.9]
So finally, Church Growth Fund and next slide.

[20:40.2]
So, those who don't know the Church Growth Fund is a fund which the representative body launched right at the end of 2023, effectively said they would make £100 million available out of their reserves over a period of 10 years.

[20:57.6]
So it's a similar pledge to what we made back in 2020, but our 3 million. But of course they've got a lot more reserves than we have. But I think in many ways it was commensurate that there is their sort of mission statement which says what they want the fund to be, focus on.

[21:16.2]
And it's very much about growth and not just you know, support for deficits. It is trying to create some growth and there's interest in experiences which I'm sure others can talk about, which is, you know, how there are signs of growth in different parts of not only the diocese but also across the church in Wales and we can learn from those and and move forward.

[21:43.6]
So next slide please. So, we are in the process now of starting our bid formulation. We didn't go to it immediately. We want to run down our existing programmes and to be honest Bishop Mary was only recently in post. We need to find our feet.

[22:00.6]
But we are the largest diocese by far. We think we do merit a strong bid and a good proportion of those funds. We've learned a lot from RAF and vision programmes. We've had a review done of them which I think has pointed to think something's going really well, other things not going so well, a lot of things being okay, so we've got that experience to learn from and I think that's always helpful when you're looking to establish new programmes.

[22:27.7]
Won't necessarily be more of the same but still, there's a learning process to be taken on. We very much want this to be bottom up process so it won't be a lot of people in an ivory tower just coming up with wizo ideas.

[22:43.3]
We really do want to learn from experiences on the ground and that to help with that a task and finish group is being established which will be cross cutting from across the diocese, from clergy, lay people, all sorts of people.

[23:01.0]
So there's about 30 people in or so. It's a broad cross section and, they'll be working in smaller groups to develop, thinking very much on their experience and knowledge. That'll be initiative, process.

[23:17.5]
Dominic Jewell is going to project manage that for us. And Dominic's had experience in previous, jobs of this sort of work. So he's well placed to help us with this. And then we'll call on external advice as needed.

[23:32.8]
But the aim really is, and Bishop Mary, if she was here tonight, she would be speaking to this with me, I think, But the aim is really we want something which has diocesan ownership at the end of the day. So it will be consulted on, not ad nauseam because we do need to move on with this, but there will be consultation and having this group which is, I think pretty representative of the diocesan life, we will have a good start to that.

[23:57.1]
So that process is in the very early stages now. But the aim is to go through the process, probably have a bid ready quarter two, middle of next year, which can then obviously be submitted to the RB for their, consideration and we hope, approval.

[24:15.3]
Next slide and that's it. So once again, generally, thank you to all of you who contribute so much life, the diocese. It's not just, like me, it's a lot of people make this diocese what it is.

[24:30.9]
So generally, thank you to everybody. As always, if, if you want to raise any points of me, I'm around at the conference on Saturday. I'll be there. Coffee breaks, lunch break. I quite often get collared by people for a discussion or a question.

[24:45.9]
I'm very happy to talk about that then. And yeah, just, you know where I am, please, please contact me. Thank you everybody. Thank you, Mike. And thank you for all the work you do in leading the DBF Much, of it is unseen, and some would say is a thankless task.

[25:06.7]
So thank you very much indeed. I know Mike is willing to take any factual questions if anybody has a burning question, but say he will be around on Saturday, as will, James and other officers, to answer your questions, then, yes, we'll all be there.

[25:24.1]
The team will be there. So, if you, if you can't catch me, James there,Shantelle is, there, Dominic's there. You know, there's lots of people there who can.... And if we can't deal with the question, then we'll, we'll come back to you. Thanks, Mike. I see virtual rounds of applause appearing for you and for your work.

[25:42.6]
Too kind.

[25:47.2]
Good. Can we move on then, to another annual report that from the Standing Committee, the Diocesan Conference. And that's the Diocesan Registrar. This is Harriet Morgan, who's going to present that to us.

[26:02.2]
Harriet, thank you. Thanks Mark. Yeah. Hi, I'm Harriet, Diocesan Registrar. And I know you've all already had this report, to read, but I'll just take through some of the highlights of it. So, in relation to the Diocesan Standing Committee's governance, ourselves we've been working towards greater transparency so that the diocese can see what is discussed and agreed at the meetings.

[26:27.0]
And so it has been agreed that we will publish the minutes of the meetings on the diocesan website. I know there's some work going on on the diocesan website, but hopefully there will be a governance section which will include those papers so that they are easily able to be found. And the Archdeacons reported to us on some compliance visits that they undertook, within the diocese to ensure that buildings were safe, people supported, records kept and updated.

[26:54.8]
And the Diocesan Standing Committee's recommendation was that in every minister area there should be one volunteer or warden who should be nominated as responsible for compliance to make sure that the myriad of things we need to do for compliance, are done in each of the ministry areas in relation to mission and growth.

[27:14.9]
The Archdeacon's visitations, and I think this is the third in a three year cycle which focused on evangelism and growth and they were reported on to the Standing Committee. These generated enthusiasm and ideas and all of this will feed in the process for developing projects and proposals for the Church Growth Fund as Mike has just been talking about.

[27:40.6]
We also had a report into the work, of the Church in Wales Evangelism Fund, which again Mike mentioned in his talk and that was commissioned to look on Young Faith Matters team and related projects. And it highlighted that whilst engagement activity had increased the church's visibility and introduced many young people to the Christian faith, there was a need to shift from event and programme based initiatives to long term locally owned ministry that sustains and nurtures faith over time.

[28:14.0]
And a recurring theme coming out of that was the importance of deeper integration between central teams and local church leadership. And at the heart of this was a call to flip the traditional diocesan model, placing local needs and those we seek to reach at the top.

[28:30.1]
As Mike has talked about and to build a more collaborative missional culture across the diocese. So whilst obviously further assessment will still be undertaken in relation to the evangelism and vision funded programmes, these recommendations are being taken on board in the approach to the Church Growth Fund.

[28:52.5]
We were pleased to hear from representatives of governing body and representative body in provincial reports that came to the standing committee. And in November 2024 the provincial team organised a diocesan learning community which gathered representatives from all diocese to think about spirituality, finances and organisation, clergy welfare, how we work together in these structures and what we can learn from each other's experiences.

[29:20.0]
And it was recommended that this should be replicated at diocesan level and most diocese incorporated this approach into their clergy college days. Standing committee also recommended the publication of the ministry area Self assessment Survey results and it's hoped that these will be included on the new website.

[29:39.7]
We also heard from The Bishop and Dr Heather Payne about their work on the Anglican Communion Commission on Science and Ethics. And this was a response to one of Lambeth calls to engage our faith with science and ethics which affect our daily lives such as National Rivers Conference, global climate change, artificial intelligence, assisted dying and literacy.

[30:02.6]
The Bishop also reported to standing committee on the listening exercise about blessings or marriage for same sex couples across the province and regular worships were given a chance to input into that discussion. Across the diocese there was also a debate in governing body just in the last week or so on this issue heard from Mike in relation to finance and funding.

[30:27.7]
But just to say that the standing committee did request that DBF consider supporting ministry areas cash flow where grant funders were slow to disburse funds and reconsider the rebate which was an incentive to ministry areas to pay the fairer share.

[30:44.3]
It was also recommended that fees for life events should be paid to ministry areas. And the standing committee requested that the diocese GB and RB delegates to raise this matter provincially. Finally Standing committee supported the bishop in territorial reorganisation of which she consulted them.

[31:05.9]
So this year the reorganisation has included the establishment of the archdukenry of Morganoug. And that has meant that there needed to be boundary changes to some deaneries and ministry areas in the west of the diocese. That was to ensure that as possible allocation of ministry areas churches, clergy, worshipers and population was as even as possible across the three archdeaconries.

[31:30.3]
So that's the highlight of the port. And I asked and I ask that the conference notes it very much. Thank you Harriet.

[31:48.0]
So to the next item on our agenda the proposed amendments the Constitution you would have seen those in the papers for this evening's meeting. And James I think, our Diocesan Secretary is going to talk us through those.

[32:10.1]
I can unmute myself. My computer running slowly. Thank you. Yes, these were matters which were discussed by the Standing Committee and incorporated now into some slight revisions to the Diocesan Constitution.

[32:30.5]
It sounds a major thing changing the constitution, but these are relatively minor points which have either become apparent in the course of the year after establishing ministerials and so forth. But also some of them caused by some changes provincially.

[32:49.4]
So some bits of tidying up. The first point was about that timescales. The governing body changed the constitution, the Church in Wales to allow ministry areas or parishes to hold their annual vestry meetings, up until the end of June.

[33:07.4]
I think previously it was by Easter, hence often known as Easter Vestry. But now they can take place up until the end of June. And this compressed the time frame which was outlined in our constitution, for deanery elections, particularly deanery elections to Standing Committee which had to be carried out and informed to the Diocesan Office by the 14th of July, for standing Committee members to take up that role on the 1st of August, obviously two weeks between, or potentially two weeks between the annual vestry meeting and in order to hold elections and then report them, was too tight.

[33:48.4]
So the proposal is to relax that a bit and to allow Standing Committee to take up their role from the date of conference. So it's aligned with the Diocesan Conference each year. And that will mean that that will give a number of months over the summer for deaneries to gather and to hold their elections each three years on the triennial, cycle.

[34:12.7]
So one of that's the first point is to change that time frame. Second thing is also about eligibility for. Also about deanery elections. So eligibility for Standing Committee, particularly clergy, were required previously to only stand for election in the deanery in which they live.

[34:34.6]
We now have for various reasons, pragmatic and otherwise we have clergy who live perhaps across the border and live in a deanery but serve in another deanery. So the proposal is to allow them the option as an alternative to stand for deanery elections in the deanery in which they serve, or the deanery in which they live.

[34:58.1]
They can't stand in two deaneries in the same year. So they have to make a choice, but they can stand where they live or where they serve. The Third change is about electronic meetings and elections. We discovered that. So this is to plug the gaps.

[35:14.7]
It's possible for minister area councils to hold electronic meetings, given a letter of authority from the bishop. And it is possible for the diocese to hold its meetings electronically, but it wasn't, explicitly permitted, for deaneries or, other committees.

[35:34.8]
And so we wanted just to make that a broad permission for meetings to be held electronically and for elections to be held electronically. We've just come to the end of, an election process which in a minute I'll be able to report on, again that that is possible for the diocese, but.

[35:52.4]
So up to now has not been possible, at deanery or minister area level. But this will allow that to happen as well. And finally, there were some. We noticed during the elections process this year that there were differences of requirements, for nominations.

[36:08.9]
And some questions came up to us in the Dawson office about, In the different elections there were different nominations and proposing and seconding requirements. So it's just in the general provisions for elections. We're tidying that up so that it's consistent across all the elections that will have the same process.

[36:26.4]
So that, regardless of who's standing, anyone can nominate, propose or second, a candidate for election. And that, the same amount of information in terms of, a little bit of a biography is required for each one.

[36:42.4]
So those are the four, changes outlined, in the COVID note that was circulated and also track changes in the, amended constitution. I'm happy to take questions. Or if there aren't any, chair, then we can move straight to, proposing that those amendments be taken on.

[37:05.5]
Thank you. Any particular questions for James on those amendments?

[37:14.6]
Do we spy any hands?

[37:20.7]
No. No, I can't see any. Good. Thank you. In that case then, a proposer for those amendments on block. As Moira Randall's thumb has been flying across the screen.

[37:38.6]
Harriet. Lots of thumbs.

[37:45.2]
In that case, all in favour of, these... We're all in favour. Anyone against?

[37:54.9]
Put your thumbs away.

[38:03.6]
I presume that, passes the amendments. Passes. Thank you very much. Thank you, James. Now it's going to be you again, because we have had some questions submitted to us.

[38:20.7]
There was a deadline for submitting questions for, oral answers, at this part of the conference. That deadline passed sometime last week, I think it was. And James, is now going to, point us in the direction of those questions and offer response.

[38:39.9]
Thank you. The first question or proposal really is from Dr. Heather Payne. And, I think, actually if it's all right, Chair, I'd like to ask, Heather to give us a brief introduction. Yes. Thank you, Heather. Thank you so much, Mark and James.

[38:56.7]
And So I know most people, but for those I haven't met, I'm Heather Payne, and I am a Mac Lay chair in Roath and Cathays ministry area. And I'm a regular worshipper at St Edwards Church in, In the old parish of Roath.

[39:15.3]
So, What I'm suggesting is that we actually, as charity trustees, think about, using the Nolan Principles of public life, to make sure that all our charity trustees are actually equipped to do, to discharge their responsibilities well and properly.

[39:41.8]
Why do we need to bother people with this? Well, we are all trustees once we take on a role, in a ministry area council or, in any of these offices that we are elected to, to represent, not just other people in our churches, but also the mission of the church, generally.

[40:05.3]
Because of course, if our fundamental goal is to, to actually produce, in the world, but bring, the world closer to, to heaven, using the five marks of mission to tell, teach, tend, transform and treasure, then actually, our own trustworthiness is actually critical in achieving that.

[40:31.9]
Why should we worry? Well, you know, if you're a governing body or watching the proceedings there, was concern, about what has happened in Bangor. We know that we previously had, problems in the Diocese of Monmouth, and there have been problems in this diocese. A recent tribunal decision was fully published so that everybody could see, that certain things had not gone as well as they probably should have.

[40:58.6]
Again, this is about, making sure that we have enough system change in order to support everybody, keep everybody safe. It's not about blaming. It's about, supporting and training. So, I hope you've had a chance to have a quick look at the brief document that I sent which sets out, the Nolan principles.

[41:19.5]
And I'll just mention them by name. Selflessness. And that's about the objects of our charity. And all our charities talk about the whole mission of the church for public benefit, not just our own benefit. So selflessness, integrity, objectivity, accountability, openness, honesty and leadership.

[41:40.8]
We've already heard all of this stuff from Mike, from Harriet and the fact that... And from James Explaining things, publishing minutes. So we're well on the way. But we are here to do a particular job and we also have to think about all our trustees on all our Macs.

[42:02.6]
So, my suggestion is that we try and adopt these principles formally as a governance code. That we actually support people to do it well by offering training for anybody who would like it, and that we hold ourselves to account in all our meetings by, adhering to these principles.

[42:20.3]
So that's my proposal. Very happy, to discuss it, and take any challenges and, offer any support that, people might need. Thank you. Thank you, Heather. James.

[42:37.4]
Yes, I've discussed this with, the Bishop and the senior team. Really, thank you very much for this helpful suggestion, Heather. In summary, we agree, in short, the Nolan Principles are robust yet flexible framework and recommended, as Heather said, for a wide variety of public sector, third sector, other settings, anywhere where good governance is at a premium, the diocese should be espousing, supporting and recommending them at all levels.

[43:04.8]
At Diocesan Conference this year, we're also considering the Dignity Charter, how to Live it out and the Standing Doctrinal Commission's work on authority, all of which are useful, in, and all resting on the foundation of sound biblical teaching.

[43:21.9]
For us as a diocese, as the body of Christ, living and working as ambassadors for Jesus and holding ourselves to higher standards. These principles will be incorporated in trustee and leadership training. And it's recommended that every committee, diocese and ministry areas that we all make time to consider what these principles mean for members, both individually and corporately.

[43:43.3]
And we'll do what we can to help enabling this. Thank you, James. Yes, and, of course we've also got the Church in Wales Dignity Charter, and, there was, recently a report from the Standing Doctrinal  Commission, which has done some work on authority and it feeds into all of this as well.

[44:03.6]
Thank you. Thank you very much. James, Harriet has a question. Sorry, Harriet? Yeah, I mean the Nolan Principles, absolutely no problem with that. But I would also recommend to everybody who is a trustee the, Charity Governance Code, which I think, incorporates in very, similar principles but puts it in the language of charity trustees.

[44:32.1]
And so I would, if people are struggling, this would recommend having a look at the Charity Governance Code, To help the running of the organise of each of the MACs. Excellent. Thank you, Harriet. Any other comments, questions?

[44:50.6]
No? Good. Thank you for bringing that to us and to the table tonight. Thank you, James. Thank you. So we have a few, more financial questions raised by Julian Jordan, the South Cardiff Ministry Area Treasurer.

[45:09.2]
And I think, Julian is online this evening, but I will if it's all right, Julian, I'll quickly read out the question and a brief response in each one. Then we can have whether there's question and answers and you can respond, after that the first question.

[45:28.1]
So they're about transparency and finances. First question is can, the forecasted gap between pledges and actual payments for 2025 be shared by the Diocesan Board of Finance? And some of these areas, some of these figures will touch on things that Mike mentioned as well.

[45:46.7]
So the apologies if there's a bit of duplication, but it's best to be clear. The DBF cannot give currently an accurate, or realistic forecast for 2025 because we're not at the end of the year yet. We don't know what Ministry Areas will contribute during the last quarter.

[46:04.4]
It's not uncommon that MAs give make up the gap and give a bit of a lump sum at the end of the year when other financial commitments have become clear. What we can tell you is that up to now, the gap between pleasures and actual payments, well, up to the beginning of September, the end of August, the gap, that we refer to as arrears was 242,594, for the 2025 figure, and that adds to arrears from 2024 of £341,444 in 2023 of 102,381 and before that of 21,162.

[46:49.3]
So that totals a figure of 707,584 as Mike reported. So I think it was that... Dan flashed up a comment that obviously by the end of the year it won't be a forecast. I completely accept that. But as I said, it's difficult for me to forecast what the Ministry Areas will be contributing.

[47:10.2]
And so that figure stands at just over 240,000 for this year.

[47:20.0]
Mark, shall I go straight through all the... Yes, they're all related, aren't they? They are. Right, so the next one. What impact will this gap, this arrears have on diocesan reserves and at what point will it become critical for the diocese? Well, there is an immediate cash flow issue which is that the DBF so far has covered those costs of ministry to the tune of 708,000 over the last few years.

[47:45.8]
However, up to now, DBF has assumed that these arrears will eventually be paid by the ministry areas as they have been in the past due to the size of the arrears. At the end of last year, the accountants recommended that a provision be made in the 2024 accounts of 250,000.

[48:01.7]
As Mike mentioned, that's not a write off. It's still expected hopes that the arrears will be paid and that that provision can be reversed, even if those repayments are over a long term payment plan or other creative solutions. For the moment, the impact is a reduction in DBF reserves of 250,000 on top of the core operational and vision cost, which totaled a reduction reported in the accounts of 497,000 last year.

[48:29.2]
This leaves available reserves of 10 million, unrestricted reserves of 7.9 and designated reserves of 2.1. So, as Mike said, the position is not of immediate concern, but those are significant impacts on those reserves and, they're not limitless.

[48:49.6]
Third question. What was the gap between pledges and budget for 2025? The total fairer share in 2024 when it was fairer share before its, common fund. The total fairer share requested in that year was 4.7 million, 4,741,997 and the total in 2025 baseline.

[49:14.6]
So the expected pledge, level expected common fund total recalculated based on actual cost of Ministry was 4,744,000. So just, 2,000 more pledges received for 2025 totaled 4,000,150.

[49:35.9]
So that was 593,643 pounds short of the baseline expected pledge. Fourth question. For ministry areas that are, unable to meet their pledges, will their actual 2025 payment become the new baseline pledge plus inflation?

[49:58.4]
Well, as we reported, before, as I've noted just now, there is a significant gap of arrears where ministry areas haven't managed to reach their pledges. And even the pledges, as I just mentioned, fell short of what the DBF needed to pay to cover costs of ministry.

[50:17.9]
It was a budgeted shortfall. So if 2026 pledges were reduced to the level of 2025 actual payments, the shortfall compared to costs of ministry would be substantial and unsustainable in the medium long term. So for the initial request, we've assumed that ministry areas will be...

[50:37.3]
all MAs will be treated the same and will abide by their 2025 pledge plus inflation, since that's the cost that the DBF needs, to cover ministry. If any individual ministry are unable to meet their pledges, we're discussing Options with them on a case by case basis.

[50:55.5]
But sitting of course within the diocesan wide context of the Common Fund contributing to ministry across the diocese. Fifthly, fifth question. There are six questions. So fifth question. What support is the diocese offering to help struggling ministry areas reach a sustainable financial position?

[51:17.5]
If there were health boards in Wales such areas might be placed under what's known as special measures. And schools? There's a concept of special measures in education as well, very rarely used for financial situations. But there is that concept we have.

[51:38.1]
The DBF has increased financial and property support as Mike mentioned and budgeted and planned further support on finances and property for 2026. And we're developing training and support for leaders administer area leaders going having some leadership training next month and we're building on that for lay chairs and trustees also.

[52:01.6]
We also welcome any requests or recommendations as to what form better support might take to provide to ministry areas. But we don't find that the term special measures is particularly helpful in terms of how it's often perceived it's often perceived as top down, dictatorial and directive, or indeed what measures, constraints or plans could be imposed.

[52:26.7]
Rather, in the spirit of pulling together we would like to share burdens, problems and solutions honestly and openly. We'd like to build enhanced support which is a learning from a concept in the education sector where we surround anywhere struggling with extra support and develop sustainable approaches working together to the shared goal of building the kingdom.

[52:52.7]
On a practical level, as administrators have requested, the DBF has in the past year increased its provision of support for accountancy, bookkeeping, financial administration and property. The financial as well as applying for grants as well grant funding financial side of this is headed by Peter Watson and provided on an as requested basis.

[53:13.9]
We've increased this team in recent months, plan to do so further in the coming years if the need is there. Property support has also been increased in the church buildings team caring for churches and other buildings. And also both the RB and the DBF have made more support available for dealing with church halls or parsonages that are no longer required and beefing up the process of sale capacity in the wider diocesan teams such as archdeacons and area deans has also been increased.

[53:41.5]
An additional archdeacon, and with area deans given more training and support. And that's all in order to provide broader support to ministry areas and in particular clerical leadership. And final question, given the ongoing financial gap it's perhaps time to have a serious conversation about aligning diocese and except expenditure at, primarily salaries with diocesan income, primarily common fund payments, alongside the grant from the Church in Wales for diocesan staff.

[54:12.3]
With the current budget shortfall, can we realistically continue drawing from both the Church in Wales reserves and diocesan, reserves? And I, guess that there's also hidden in there the unspoken reference to the fact that many ministries are also drawing heavily upon their own reserves.

[54:32.2]
Well, in response, income and budgetary shortfall has been a top priority for the DBF for the last two years. If not longer. This is consistent with the RB and all other Welsh diocese who are facing similar challenges, largely due to a step change decline in attendance.

[54:50.9]
The DBF is looking at many ways to add to the income, including external grants and lobbying for increased RB funding. We're also carefully considering DBF costs, reducing headcount and salary costs, payroll where possible, while still building up the support that's needed for ministry areas.

[55:08.7]
As I mentioned, there are several vacancies and clergy posts across the diocese which do help to reduce costs a little, although we cover some of those gaps. And there are fees payable for those. But we don't wish to reduce clergy headcount if at all possible because this leads to a spiral of decline.

[55:27.9]
However, if the main source of income which is given by faithful church members to fund clergy, continues at its current reduced level, then it may indeed be that more radical conversations are needed about how to organise the diocese more effectively. So that concludes my responses.

[55:47.7]
Thank you, James. Lots of figures in there and lots of information, really. These answers will be published, I think, James, won't they? On the, on the website, the questions and the answers. So you'll be able to see those soon after the the conference has adjourned.

[56:07.1]
Julian, you have a right of reply. You are there somewhere, I think. I am, yeah. Do you want to come back? I just want to say thank you to James. I know we had a conversation via email, around some of the questions. I think.

[56:22.3]
Yeah, these questions come from our own Ministry Area Council. We met last evening and I showed them the questions. As you know, we've struggled hard to make our pledge. That was a massive increase since ministry areas came, into point.

[56:38.7]
The figures aren't. I did put those in the questions but they haven't been shared with you all, so that's fine. And we did make the decision that we'd go from Three to two clerics, as part of a discussion with the archdeacon in terms of. We couldn't afford 165,000. We could only afford 110,000, because that would have been a 60% increase in our fairest share payment if we'd carried on at three stipends.

[57:02.8]
And that's, I suppose the frustration coming from grassroots is that we as a Mac, are, taking, as Heather said, the Nolan principles, being very on board and trying to be as transparent as possible. And thank you for opening up and being a bit more open this evening.

[57:21.1]
But over the time what we're talking about is 700,000 of deficit payments and that's growing each year, as you explained. And some of these go back multi years. And that's. And I agree with you in terms of the, comment around special mentorship.

[57:37.4]
It was there to kind of push a button in a way, I suppose, to say, can we, what more can we do? And I do feel there does need to be a bit more of a top down support coming in to those ministry areas that are struggling to come up with radical ways, as you said, to move forward.

[57:57.8]
And the support that's being put in place, but then that cost is being put onto ministry areas that are performing. And that's why I kind of will push that. Because, yes, the bookkeeping services, I sit on the College of Treasures and can hear that that is needed.

[58:16.1]
But we also, if we fill all those, all the roles across the diocese with paid staff because we can't find the volunteers, we'll never find volunteers to do those roles and we'll never come up with ways to do it. Yes, it takes me probably two weeks a year to, have paid work, to do those in the evenings to become, to create a ministry area, set of books.

[58:39.6]
But that's what we as volunteers then commit to do. So. Yeah, there's no real answer. But I do feel that we need this better transparency and we need to kind of have these figures on a, before conference to be able to look into them in more detail to have a better understanding.

[58:58.9]
Thank you, Dugan. Certainly. If you, if you sit in the Tyler team, the bishops team, or if you were to listen to almost any meeting I'm involved in, these things are live issues and are, constantly, at the forefront of our discussions and our minds.

[59:17.1]
So, it is something that we are acutely aware of. Those of you who are on the governing body will know, and others who Tuned in might have picked up that, last week's governing body meeting there was a private member's motion which was passed and accepted from the Diocese of St.

[59:35.0]
David's which asked the representative body to look again at its, grants to diocese and ministry areas. And the level of grants. The chair of the representative body promised to bring back to the next meeting some, modelling that they'll be doing.

[59:57.3]
To look at the vast reserves that the representative body has, the grants that are given to diocese at the moment and how that could change. So it is just possible that, Well, it's certainly these questions are being asked across the church in Wales and, at the highest levels.

[60:16.0]
And it is possible that formulas will change. So, watch this space, I think. Julian, thank you for those questions. Thank you. Julian and Heather, thank you for bringing those things to our attention. This evening, the, final item on the agenda before we adjourn, is to hear about the results of, recent diocesan elections.

[60:43.0]
And, Harriet, that is you with the information, I think, also, James. No, I. I have that, actually. James. Sorry. Yes, I can dive in, if that's all right. Harry? Yes. You're the election monitor, were you not? Returning officer. That's right.

[60:59.1]
Returning officer. So we held the elections electronically as in previous years. And it closed, just this afternoon. So, there were, five elections. Three clerical and two lay.

[61:15.0]
And so I will go through them, one by one. The governing body. We were electing clergy and lay members to governing body. Two clerical members. Reverend John Durley and Reverend Edward Owen.

[61:31.4]
And there was a supplementary list. Reverend Ben Andrews, Reverend Rob McDonald and Reverend James Griffiths. For the lay. We were able to elect up to four lay representatives for governing body. Moira Randall, Dr Heather Payne, and David-Lloyd Jones were elected.

[61:50.6]
There were no other candidates standing, so there is a vacancy and no supplementary list. Thank you for, the electoral college, again electing clerical and lay electors. Six of each, plus a supplementary list of up to nine of each.

[62:13.4]
The clerics elected were Venerable Mark Preece, Very Reverend Jason Bray, our dean of Llandaff, Rev'd Zoe King, Rev'd Canon, Ian Yemm Rev'd Edward Owen and Rev'd Ben Andrews. The supplementary list, Reverend Andrew James and Reverend Rob McDonald.

[62:35.7]
And the lay elected were Moira Randall, Heather Payne, Michael Lawley and Susan Rivers. And so again, there are two vacancies, on the lay electors and no lay supplementary list.

[62:52.1]
The supplementary lists are there, by the way, for, in case of casual vacancies. So if one of those members elected, either elected to governing body or the electors, as the case may be, then someone is ready to step up into the breach. If there is no supplementary list, there are mechanisms for either further elections or appointments to be made.

[63:14.9]
The final election was to the disciplinary tribunal. And, so that was a clerical representative, Reverend Andrew James was elected to that, to that post. There's only one cleric to be elected, and that was Andrew James.

[63:31.1]
And supplementary list of Reverend Edward Owen and Reverend Darren Lynch. So I want to thank everyone who stood, everyone, who nominated and proposed and seconded, and everyone who voted for those elections. Thank you. Thank you, James.

[63:46.9]
And congratulations to all those who have been elected to those various bodies. Thank you for, being willing to serve and serve the church, in those ways. Thank you very much indeed. We are about to adjourn before our closing prayers, may I remind you that we gather again on Saturday morning at half past nine for part two of the Diocesan Conference.

[64:11.9]
Lunch will be provided for those who, registered in time for attendance at the conference. It will not be live streamed, but it will be recorded and placed on the Diocesan website after the conference, happens.

[64:31.5]
So it remains, I think, for us to close in prayer. Archdeacon Anne-Marie, would you lead us in closing prayers, please? Gweddiwn. Let us pray.

[64:48.7]
We commend to God the work we have done together this evening. We give thanks for those who are stewards of the resources of our diocese, of our deaneries and ministry areas.

[65:06.5]
We give thanks for the work of our diocesan staff, our treasurers, and all who give generously to support the work of our churches.

[65:22.3]
We lay before God our concerns and the challenges that we face.

[65:32.1]
And we ask for God's guidance as we seek to strengthen the work that we can do together to build the kingdom of God in this place.

[65:48.0]
And until we meet again, may God watch between us,m May Christ stay beside us and in the shadow of the Spirit's wing may we pass this night in peace.

[66:06.3]
Amen. Amen. The Lord be with you. And also with you. Thank you very much indeed. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of Bishop Mary, I declare this conference adjourned until Saturday morning.

[66:23.2]
Thank you very much indeed.